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> Obama's 1st Major U-turn, Very very disappointing
Wee Tony
  Posted: May 13 2009, 01:56 PM
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Obama U-turn on abuse photographs

US President Barack Obama has changed his mind and will now attempt to block the publication of photographs showing the abuse of prisoners by US soldiers.

The US government had previously said it would not fight a court ruling ordering the release of the pictures.

Mr Obama now believes the release of the photos would make the job of US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan more difficult, White House officials said.

The pictures were due to be released by 28 May, according to the court ruling.

The court order was issued by the US Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit in September 2008, in response to a Freedom of Information Act request by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU).

The US Department of Defence had been preparing to release the images, but Mr Obama has now directed his White House Counsel, Greg Craig, to raise an objection to their publication.

The dispute could now end up before the US Supreme Court.

Whie House officials said Mr Obama did not feel comfortable with the release of the photographs because he believed their release would endanger US troops, and because the national security implications of such a release had not been fully presented to the court.

------------http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8048774.stm

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Josh
Posted: May 13 2009, 04:35 PM
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His reasoning sounds logical to me.
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Wee Tony
Posted: May 13 2009, 05:15 PM
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QUOTE (Josh @ May 13 2009, 09:25 PM)
His reasoning sounds logical to me.

What reasoning? The reasoning is very vague.
I don't think US troops can really be anymore endangered than they are already. Although, I do think there is a great potential benefit that could be a missed opportunity.

Surely, if you are trying to persuade the Iraqi people of the benefits of transparent Western democracy, your case would be more persuasive if you led by example?
Insurgents can say to disaffected Iraqis that Western government is corrupt. An easy way to disprove their case is to show that justice and transparency is an inherant value of Western democracy - that there is no hint of a cover up. An easy way to do that is to keep the investigation into these abuses against Iraqi people open and transparent. To show that this new system is different from the corrupt regimes they have known by helping them experience justice even though it shows Western powers in a bad light. Showing that our system of justice will find who was in the wrong, even if it is us in the wrong.

Keeping this investigation open and transparent may well be an easy way to halt insurgent recruitment from the people of Iraq because insurgents will be unable to call us hypocrites or corrupt


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Mary Poppins
Posted: May 13 2009, 05:28 PM
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QUOTE (Josh @ May 13 2009, 03:25 PM)
His reasoning sounds logical to me.

Me too. What better way to piss off the enemy than show the abuse of their brethren. maryluvs_dunno.gif


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Wee Tony
Posted: May 13 2009, 06:00 PM
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QUOTE (Mrs. So Flyy @ May 13 2009, 10:18 PM)
Me too. What better way to piss off the enemy than show the abuse of their brethren. maryluvs_dunno.gif

Make them feel like there will be no justice for their brethren?

Also, it's not really the enemy we have to worry about - they're already pissed with us, it's the neutral Iraqi people. It's not really a case of getting them to like us, more getting them to be able to trust what we say.

We should make a distinction between the enemy and the Iraqi people. We are essentially fighting a ideological war against the insurgents for the Iraqi people. The insurgents say we kill innocents... well, we do. The insurgents say we are worse than Saddam... and to some people, we must seem that way. When those individuals heard about this torture, they certainly must have thought we were at least as barbaric as Saddam. But this is an opportunity to show the benefits of the Ideology we are trying to sell them - it's saying, "yeah, bad things happen in democracy, but, unlike Saddam's regime, there will be justice when bad things happen."
And in this case, the closure a sense of justice brings will be very helpful for us.


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Josh
Posted: May 13 2009, 07:10 PM
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Mary Poppins
Posted: May 28 2009, 11:20 AM
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At least one picture shows an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner while another is said to show a male translator raping a male detainee.

Further photographs are said to depict sexual assaults on prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube.

Another apparently shows a female prisoner having her clothing forcibly removed to expose her breasts.

Detail of the content emerged from Major General Antonio Taguba, the former army officer who conducted an inquiry into the Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq.

Allegations of rape and abuse were included in his 2004 report but the fact there were photographs was never revealed. He has now confirmed their existence in an interview with the Daily Telegraph.

The graphic nature of some of the images may explain the US President’s attempts to block the release of an estimated 2,000 photographs from prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan despite an earlier promise to allow them to be published.

Maj Gen Taguba, who retired in January 2007, said he supported the President’s decision, adding: “These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency.

“I am not sure what purpose their release would serve other than a legal one and the consequence would be to imperil our troops, the only protectors of our foreign policy, when we most need them, and British troops who are trying to build security in Afghanistan.

“The mere description of these pictures is horrendous enough, take my word for it.”

In April, Mr Obama’s administration said the photographs would be released and it would be “pointless to appeal” against a court judgment in favour of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU).

But after lobbying from senior military figures, Mr Obama changed his mind saying they could put the safety of troops at risk.

Earlier this month, he said: “The most direct consequence of releasing them, I believe, would be to inflame anti-American public opinion and to put our troops in greater danger.”

It was thought the images were similar to those leaked five years ago, which showed naked and bloody prisoners being intimidated by dogs, dragged around on a leash, piled into a human pyramid and hooded and attached to wires.

Mr Obama seemed to reinforce that view by adding: “I want to emphasise that these photos that were requested in this case are not particularly sensational, especially when compared to the painful images that we remember from Abu Ghraib.”

The latest photographs relate to 400 cases of alleged abuse between 2001 and 2005 in Abu Ghraib and six other prisons. Mr Obama said the individuals involved had been “identified, and appropriate actions” taken.

Maj Gen Taguba’s internal inquiry into the abuse at Abu Ghraib, included sworn statements by 13 detainees, which, he said in the report, he found “credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses.”

Among the graphic statements, which were later released under US freedom of information laws, is that of Kasim Mehaddi Hilas in which he says: “I saw [name of a translator] ******* a kid, his age would be about 15 to 18 years. The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets. Then when I heard screaming I climbed the door because on top it wasn’t covered and I saw [name] who was wearing the military uniform, putting his **** in the little kid’s ***…. and the female soldier was taking pictures.”

The translator was an American Egyptian who is now the subject of a civil court case in the US.

Three detainees, including the alleged victim, refer to the use of a phosphorescent tube in the sexual abuse and another to the use of wire, while the victim also refers to part of a policeman’s “stick” all of which were apparently photographed.


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DeeJay
Posted: May 28 2009, 08:12 PM
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Ok Obama you say that releasing the pictures is gonna make the troops job harder, what exactly is the troops job? America aka Bush/Chaney shouldn't have gone over there to begin with. If shit was so bad when Saddam was in power then the people should have overthrew him. There is no logical reason why America should have invaded Iraq to begin with.


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KED luvs MJB
Posted: Jul 12 2009, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE (Mrs. So Flyy @ May 28 2009, 08:10 AM)
At least one picture shows an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner while another is said to show a male translator raping a male detainee.

Further photographs are said to depict sexual assaults on prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube.

Another apparently shows a female prisoner having her clothing forcibly removed to expose her breasts.

Detail of the content emerged from Major General Antonio Taguba, the former army officer who conducted an inquiry into the Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq.

Allegations of rape and abuse were included in his 2004 report but the fact there were photographs was never revealed. He has now confirmed their existence in an interview with the Daily Telegraph.

The graphic nature of some of the images may explain the US President’s attempts to block the release of an estimated 2,000 photographs from prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan despite an earlier promise to allow them to be published.

Maj Gen Taguba, who retired in January 2007, said he supported the President’s decision, adding: “These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency.

“I am not sure what purpose their release would serve other than a legal one and the consequence would be to imperil our troops, the only protectors of our foreign policy, when we most need them, and British troops who are trying to build security in Afghanistan.

“The mere description of these pictures is horrendous enough, take my word for it.”

In April, Mr Obama’s administration said the photographs would be released and it would be “pointless to appeal” against a court judgment in favour of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU).

But after lobbying from senior military figures, Mr Obama changed his mind saying they could put the safety of troops at risk.

Earlier this month, he said: “The most direct consequence of releasing them, I believe, would be to inflame anti-American public opinion and to put our troops in greater danger.”

It was thought the images were similar to those leaked five years ago, which showed naked and bloody prisoners being intimidated by dogs, dragged around on a leash, piled into a human pyramid and hooded and attached to wires.

Mr Obama seemed to reinforce that view by adding: “I want to emphasise that these photos that were requested in this case are not particularly sensational, especially when compared to the painful images that we remember from Abu Ghraib.”

The latest photographs relate to 400 cases of alleged abuse between 2001 and 2005 in Abu Ghraib and six other prisons. Mr Obama said the individuals involved had been “identified, and appropriate actions” taken.

Maj Gen Taguba’s internal inquiry into the abuse at Abu Ghraib, included sworn statements by 13 detainees, which, he said in the report, he found “credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses.”

Among the graphic statements, which were later released under US freedom of information laws, is that of Kasim Mehaddi Hilas in which he says: “I saw [name of a translator] ******* a kid, his age would be about 15 to 18 years. The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets. Then when I heard screaming I climbed the door because on top it wasn’t covered and I saw [name] who was wearing the military uniform, putting his **** in the little kid’s ***…. and the female soldier was taking pictures.”

The translator was an American Egyptian who is now the subject of a civil court case in the US.

Three detainees, including the alleged victim, refer to the use of a phosphorescent tube in the sexual abuse and another to the use of wire, while the victim also refers to part of a policeman’s “stick” all of which were apparently photographed.

what was the purpose of taking pictures anyway? maryluvs_confused1.gif


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Michelle Williams
Posted: Jul 12 2009, 10:33 PM
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QUOTE (Josh @ May 13 2009, 03:25 PM)
His reasoning sounds logical to me.

maryluvs_excl.gif maryluvs_excl.gif maryluvs_excl.gif maryluvs_excl.gif

The publication of those pictures will do nothing more than anger arabs and Muslims further, and apall the rest of the world. Nothing postive could possibly come from their publication. We've already seen enough imo and everyone knows these horrible things have happened so I don't see the point in publishing any more pictures on the matter because nothing positive will be gained from them. maryluvs_smh.gif maryluvs_smh.gif maryluvs_smh.gif maryluvs_smh.gif


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Michelle Williams
Posted: Jul 12 2009, 10:40 PM
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QUOTE (KED luvs MJB @ Jul 12 2009, 05:30 PM)
QUOTE (Mrs. So Flyy @ May 28 2009, 08:10 AM)
At least one picture shows an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner while another is said to show a male translator raping a male detainee.

Further photographs are said to depict sexual assaults on prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube.

Another apparently shows a female prisoner having her clothing forcibly removed to expose her breasts.

Detail of the content emerged from Major General Antonio Taguba, the former army officer who conducted an inquiry into the Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq.

Allegations of rape and abuse were included in his 2004 report but the fact there were photographs was never revealed. He has now confirmed their existence in an interview with the Daily Telegraph.

The graphic nature of some of the images may explain the US President’s attempts to block the release of an estimated 2,000 photographs from prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan despite an earlier promise to allow them to be published.

Maj Gen Taguba, who retired in January 2007, said he supported the President’s decision, adding: “These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency.

“I am not sure what purpose their release would serve other than a legal one and the consequence would be to imperil our troops, the only protectors of our foreign policy, when we most need them, and British troops who are trying to build security in Afghanistan.

“The mere description of these pictures is horrendous enough, take my word for it.”

In April, Mr Obama’s administration said the photographs would be released and it would be “pointless to appeal” against a court judgment in favour of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU).

But after lobbying from senior military figures, Mr Obama changed his mind saying they could put the safety of troops at risk.

Earlier this month, he said: “The most direct consequence of releasing them, I believe, would be to inflame anti-American public opinion and to put our troops in greater danger.”

It was thought the images were similar to those leaked five years ago, which showed naked and bloody prisoners being intimidated by dogs, dragged around on a leash, piled into a human pyramid and hooded and attached to wires.

Mr Obama seemed to reinforce that view by adding: “I want to emphasise that these photos that were requested in this case are not particularly sensational, especially when compared to the painful images that we remember from Abu Ghraib.”

The latest photographs relate to 400 cases of alleged abuse between 2001 and 2005 in Abu Ghraib and six other prisons. Mr Obama said the individuals involved had been “identified, and appropriate actions” taken.

Maj Gen Taguba’s internal inquiry into the abuse at Abu Ghraib, included sworn statements by 13 detainees, which, he said in the report, he found “credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses.”

Among the graphic statements, which were later released under US freedom of information laws, is that of Kasim Mehaddi Hilas in which he says: “I saw [name of a translator] ******* a kid, his age would be about 15 to 18 years. The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets. Then when I heard screaming I climbed the door because on top it wasn’t covered and I saw [name] who was wearing the military uniform, putting his **** in the little kid’s ***…. and the female soldier was taking pictures.”

The translator was an American Egyptian who is now the subject of a civil court case in the US.

Three detainees, including the alleged victim, refer to the use of a phosphorescent tube in the sexual abuse and another to the use of wire, while the victim also refers to part of a policeman’s “stick” all of which were apparently photographed.

what was the purpose of taking pictures anyway? maryluvs_confused1.gif

Those sick people don't understand "purpose". maryluvs_smh.gif maryluvs_smh.gif maryluvs_smh.gif


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Josh
Posted: Aug 13 2009, 03:53 PM
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QUOTE (DeeJay @ May 29 2009, 03:02 AM)
Ok Obama you say that releasing the pictures is gonna make the troops job harder, what exactly is the troops job? America aka Bush/Chaney shouldn't have gone over there to begin with. If shit was so bad when Saddam was in power then the people should have overthrew him. There is no logical reason why America should have invaded Iraq to begin with.

You live in a democratic country and you dont ish of what people who live in Iraq can or can not do about things, unless they don't want to wake up dead (yes, I am aware of the oxymoron). dry.gif
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